A former Director-General of National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking In Persons (NAPTIP), who is now Chairman of the Board of Trustee, United Nations Voluntary Trust Fund for Victims of trafficking, Dame Julie Okah-Donli, speaks on the anti-trafficking effort of the Federal Government, participation of women in politics, amongst other national issues, in this exclusive interview with LINUS ALEKE

What, in your opinion, are the major causes of human trafficking in Nigeria?
We cannot say that there is one major or one minor cause of human trafficking in Nigeria. We have various factors that contribute to it. There are internal and external factors. When we talk about internal factors, we mean ignorance on the part of the trafficked victims and greed on the part of the traffickers. This is in addition to poverty and lack of education in some respect. Then when we talk about external factors, of course, at the destination country there is high demand for cheap labour, there is high demand for sex, and that is why human trafficking thrives. So, when you put these factors together, you find out that it is not about Nigeria or one other country. It is a global problem, and that is why it requires a global solution. Therefore, it is the responsibility of all the countries of the world that usually have these internal and external factors. If properly tackled, it can help bring down the incident of human trafficking in Nigeria.

Edo State was said to top the chat amongst states that are notorious for human trafficking, is that still the case, or the demographic has changed?
I think there was this misconception that Edo State had the highest number of trafficked victims. That was because, at the time, the focus was on those trafficked to Italy for sex work. So, if you say that Edo State has the highest number of trafficked victims in Italy, you will be correct but that is not to say that those indigenes of Edo state are the most trafficked. It is not true. When you go to different parts of the world, you have different people from different states. For instance, you can find indigenes of Bayelsa and Rivers in countries like Cote d’Ivoire, Burkina Faso, and Ghana. And those from the Northern part of the country, you can find them in Saudi Arabia, Oman, Egypt, and Dubai, being trafficked. It is a misconception when people think that Edo State indigenes are the most trafficked. That is not true, they are the most trafficked in Italy, not in the rest of the world.

Why is government reactive rather than proactive on the issues of human trafficking?
I will not agree with you that the government is not looking into poverty alleviation and stuff like that. The Federal Government has come up with some social intervention as well as empowerment programmes. For instance, the school feeding Programme, and several others. We have about six or seven of them. The truth is that most of the time, these youths don’t even know that these Programmes exist, they don’t even believe that they can benefit from them. So, without even trying, they just make up their minds that it is not possible to access these social intervention schemes that are one. Secondly, the fight against human trafficking like I would always say, my favourite quote, is a fight that should involve government and the whole of society. The one for government must be at all levels, these trafficked victims come from one state or the other. What are the state governments doing? Why do we keep talking about the federal government? Let us even go further down, they come from local government areas. What are the local government chairmen doing about their indigenes? You understand what I am saying, so everybody has a role to play. The parents have roles to play, local government areas have roles to play, states have roles to play, the community leaders have roles to play and the faith-based organizations also have roles to play. Are we all playing these roles? These roles are supposed to complement the role of the FG, if everyone plays their part, like what you are doing now, human trafficking will be a thing of the past. Just like the way everybody played their role during the COVID-19 pandemic. If Nigerians can put in that same zeal in the fight against human trafficking, it will be brought down to the barest minimum.

What is been done to stop organ harvest, which of course is also a new dimension of human trafficking?
The Federal Government has been repatriating stranded Nigerians from Libya. I know that they are working closely with International Organisation for Migration (IOM), to ensure that those who are desirous of coming back are repatriated back to Nigeria. It is a work in progress, it is not a one-off programme.

Libya is just a host of this modern slave camp that facilities this illicit trade of organ harvest. Where are the destination countries of these harvested organs?
Well, I would not know where the destination countries are. But I can tell you that organ harvesting is a global problem. It is part of human trafficking as well, so it is a global issue and not just a territorial problem. We cannot say for sure if these harvested organs are going to India just because there is a lot of transplantation that is carried out in that country. Transplant is also carried out in Germany, transplants are carried out all over the world. So, you cannot say that this is the destination country until an investigation on the matter is concluded and findings made public. But organ harvesting is a global problem, it is a platform of human trafficking. So it is applicable all over the world.

Is there any international legal instrument that is aimed at tackling this problem of organ harvest?
We have the Palermo Protocol and then of course we have other protocols and laws that specifically aim at addressing the challenges of human trafficking. Nigeria is a signatory to the Palermo Protocol so also are many other countries. But we are talking about implementation, are they implementing the protocol? That is what we should be talking about. Every country has its anti-human trafficking laws, are they implementing these laws? That is what we should be talking about, most of them are not implementing the laws and that is the biggest problem.

Why are the global powers not doing enough to stop this obnoxious practice of endangering other people’s lives to save others?
Organ harvesting does not say you should kill someone to save someone. These are just criminals who are stealing and selling human organs in the black market. They are just evil criminals, there is nothing that tells you to kill one to save one. Someone can voluntarily donate his organ and a lot of people do donate their organs to save others. So, there is nothing like killing one to save another. The person is just killing to save his greed, and evil intentions and not to save any life.

What can be done to nip this in the bud so that it does not fester beyond what we are seeing already?
We have to tighten our air, sea, and land borders. They take these things out of the country through the borders. We have to tighten our air borders. We have to train our law enforcement agents across the board. We need to begin to see more joint operations and investigations amongst law enforcement agents. Law enforcement agencies come together, collaborating, synergizing, and ensuring that they come together to fight this crime. Of course, a lot of information must be shared, we must educate the youths on what is going on and how to protect themselves and prevent this thing from happening to them or any members of their families. So, there must be a lot of information going out there, unfortunately, the wrong information is always put out. We keep hearing about ritual murder in Nigeria and I keep saying that there is nothing like ritual murder. What we are experiencing is organ harvesting at its peak. We must stop describing it as ritual murder and call it by its name, and ensure that we put a stop to it.

Looking at the reported cases of the alleged ritual killings in Nigeria, most of the trending videos do not seem to suggest the fact that they are cases of organ harvest, it looks more like ritual killings. What do you think?
That is because people are ignorant, they don’t know the difference between ritual killings and organ harvesting. Ritual killing does not require you to bring out the organ, but once someone’s organ is ripped out, that is organ harvesting. Ritual killings sometimes are restricted to just rituals associated with the burial of some kings, if that archaic practice is still prevalent in this modern times. Or some harmful cultural practices, or killing someone to offer his blood as a sacrifice or something, but the moment the organ is being ripped out, then, of course, you know that it is a case of organ harvest. Unfortunately, we keep talking about ritual killings because there is no thorough investigation that has taken place over the years. Then, of course, the organ harvesters are going away with impunity.

European Union seems to be supporting the effort to stop human trafficking and smuggling of migrants in Africa. Do you think this interest by the EU is altruistic?
For me, I think the European Union (EU), committed a major blonder by arming the Libyans with gunboats and giving them money to feed illegal migrants in their detention camps. They are detention camps and not shelters because those are the places where evil thrives. Human Trafficking in its worst form takes place in those camps. People are raped, people are killed, and people are used as sex prisoners, sex slaves, labour slaves, and all of that. So, the worst thing they did was to have empowered the Libyans with boats to bring illegal migrants back to the camps when they escape and try to cross over to Europe. This is because the more people they have at the camps the more money they get from the EU to feed them. I think they should scrap those camps and the EU should stop supporting such, it is evil.

Do you share the sentiment in certain quarters that those migrating to Europe illegally are going there as a kind of reparations for the past atrocities of Europeans against Africa and its people?

Unfortunately, they are not enjoying anything over there which will serve as a reparation. When they get to those countries, most of them arrive as illegal migrants, and once you are an illegal migrant, you cannot enjoy anything. The only thing you enjoy is slavery and bondage which is what most of them are going through. Most of the development in Europe and America today was indeed done by Africans.

Who did the labour?

We did the labour, free labour without even pay. But that is not a justification for human trafficking, if you want to travel or migrate, do it regularly. You can go there to school, you can go there on scholarship, and you can go there to work if you are given a job with a proper work permit to stay. So, yes I do not agree that you pick up your bags, say because Africans were the ones who helped to develop your country, now you want to go and reap the benefits of the development that will not work.

Do you think African leaders should push for reparations for the evil of the past?

I believe some African leaders are already doing that, they are pushing for reparations I believe. They are also asking these countries to return the stolen artefacts that they took from various parts of Africa and I just hope that they return them and they can compensate a lot of African countries that were dealt a serious blow during the peak of the slave trade period, which has resurfaced in another form.

What were the major challenges that confronted NAPTIP under your watch?

The truth is that while I was there, I don’t know if anything has changed, but in my time, there was a lot of rivalry amongst the organizations. While you are working, others want to put their nose in your space. Rather than come together and work together, everybody was trying to be a bit busy body, trying to look serious, as well as pose as if their job is more important than yours and therefore they can put their nose in your job and all of that. This inter-agency rivalry is bad, for a very important agency like NAPTIP. So, enforcement agencies must begin to know where their duties start and where it ends and when to come together to collaborate and synergize and work together. Then, of course, during my time there was the issue of funding, I believe it is much better now, I believe the new DG is enjoying good funding. Sometimes you also have officers that are working with the bad guys, sabotaging your efforts. You are working and some of your men are working across purposes, I was able to expel six of them in my time. So if we continue to flush out the bad eggs, it will help. We have different situations like that that made the fight against human trafficking a little difficult.

You have been vocal in pushing for NAPTIP officers to bear arms. What is the rationale behind such advocacy?

I started the advocacy for NAPTIP to bear arms and I also started the advocacy for NAPTIP officers to wear uniforms. The reason is that we rely on the police to make an arrest even when the law establishing the agency empowered its officers to make an arrest. But as it stands today, NAPTIP cannot make any arrest without the police. If we for instance want to arrest people somewhere and the police say they don’t have personnel on the ground at that moment, then it means we would be compelled to abort the operation. Unfortunately, that has always been the case. If our officers bear arms, we do not need to be at the mercy of other law enforcement agencies to help us make the arrest. If our officers bear arms, we would be responsible for those we arrest and we are not going to be worried about compromise or anything because we have direct control. In terms of operations, before going out there to make the arrest, we have the information and we have the intelligence within ourselves. If we have to call the police, we would be forced to share our intelligence concerning an operation we want to carry out quietly. For me, bearing arms is the way to go, wearing a uniform is the way to go and I hope that this DG will be lucky enough to have that happen during her time. I tried and tried and was frustrated at every point. I wrote to the Vice President, Prof Yemi Osinbajo and he replied that it was not necessary. I also wrote to the National Security Adviser (NSA), he also said it was not necessary. I hope that this new DG will be the lucky person to make this happen.

When you sit in the comfort of this your office and take a headcount of women in both elective and appointive positions in Nigeria. Will you be proud to say that Nigerian women are adequately represented in politics?

Russia/Ukraine War: Afe Babalola decries FG’s laxity inevacuating Nigerians

I am a politician, and I can never be satisfied with what I see. But the truth is that you cannot force women to come out because they are women. Women have to take the bull by the horn and come out to run for offices. No man is going to sit back and tell you to come because there are too many men in positions of authority. Men will not give you that chance, the women have to get up and make a deliberate attempt to go for offices that they never thought they could run for. Women should go out to run for president, governor, or senate. They should contest for chairman of political parties, who said that a woman cannot be the chairperson of APC? Why must it always be men? No woman has ever come out to say she wants to run for the chairmanship position of a political party. It is always men, why? Women should be able to come out to do things and support each other in the process. If a women present herself, others should queue behind her to succeed. We had a women’s conference some time ago, at the International Conference Centre and all the women came from everywhere. But like I said earlier, it is one thing to say something, and it is another thing to do it. We spoke at that conference, made far-reaching decisions and I hope it will be implemented.

The power they said is not given but taken. What is it that is making women shy away from coming out to grab power as is expected of them?

The truth is that most of the time women are stigmatized. When a woman is active in politics, the men will brand her a prostitute. Or say that she is not in her husband’s house or if she is in her husband’s house, she must be sleeping with all the men around. That stigmatization has made some women very weak in politics. I am not a weak woman, so, I do not care what people think or say about me, I am a very strong woman. But luckily for us, we have very strong women coming out now not minding what anyone says. Because if you continue to allow people to intimidate you or stigmatize you or manipulate you because it is a form of manipulation to make women shy away. So, they come out with all sorts of things and throw all sorts of things at the person, some women don’t have the strength to take that, that is mainly the reason why women shy away from coming out actively to participate in elections. And sometimes they feel that there is no point because it will not be given to her because of her gender. These are some of the reasons why women do not come all out. But now we have stronger women coming out, not caring what anyone thinks or says.

What is your assessment of the incumbent administration of President Muhammadu Buhari?

I am not an assessor, so I am not going to assess the current administration. Maybe you should direct the question to political an assessor, I am not a political analyst, therefore, I am not going to analyse anything.

But as a Nigerian, are you satisfied with the performance of this government?

I am not a political analyst, I am not going to analyse anything about politics. I have told you what I have to tell you, that when it comes to fighting human trafficking, the Federal Government has got the political will to fight it because we have a whole agency called NAPTIP. Other countries are coming to copy our model. It is Nigeria and a few others that copied our model that has a full agency that is solely mandated to fight human trafficking. In other countries all over the world as advanced as they may seem, they don’t have that. They just have a small unit, maybe in the police or immigration that they call anti-trafficking unit. This is not good enough, everyone should copy the NAPTIP model.

With a full agency dedicated to the fight against human trafficking, how many convictions have we gotten so far?

Well, I would not know now because I am no longer with NAPTIP. I think NAPTIP should be in a better position to give you a precise answer because I left NAPTIP over one year ago and I am sure by now the statistics have changed. Both arrest and prosecution because when I left, we still have cases in court across the federation. I believe they had secured judgement in most of these cases by now.

Some Nigerians are calling on former President Goodluck Jonathan to contest the 2023 election. Are you part of those clamouring for his come back?

I don’t know the people that are asking President Goodluck Jonathan to come back. You know most of the time we read all kinds of fake news on social media. I don’t think the former President has told Nigerians that he is been pressured to contest the 2023 elections and that he had acceded to such a request. I am not going to speak about rumours. I will rather like to hear from him directly.

If he makes up his mind and announces his intentions to contest the coming elections, will you give him your support?

I don’t know until the time comes.

What do you think is responsible for the resurgence of coups in West Africa?

Coup is not good no matter the angle you look at it. Military government cannot be compared to democracy. It should be condemned in its entirety.