A former Secretary to the Government of Federation (SGF), Babachir Lawal, who is a member of the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC), has thrown his weight behind the Labour Party (LP) presidential candidate, Peter Obi, ahead of the 2023 election. In this interview on Channels TV Politics Today, monitored by David Lawani, the former SGF, says he is afraid that the election might end up in run-off, among other issues.

Following the dismissal of a corruption case against you recently, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) has said they are going to appeal the judgement, what is your reaction to this?

Oh, yes. They can go ahead. We will meet there when we get there.

Do you think that you are innocent?

Oh, yes. The court has proven it.

Do you think the case was politically motivated?

I cannot speak for those who did what they did. To my mind, I think the seat of the secretary to the government of the Federation is part of my hands. Otherwise, they could have used anything. But they needed the conclusion of the matter and they lost.

Was there anything that you did with your company and being in political office did you learn anything?

They are all lies. You don’t learn anything from lies.

Who are these people we are talking about?

They are there. They know themselves.

Are you one of them, the cabals?

I don’t understand what a cabal is. If the Secretary to the Government of the Federation does not influence the decision making process of the government, then what is he doing there? They call it the engine room of the government. So, if there is a cabal he should be the chief cabal. Because he is the chief adviser to the president.

At a time you question, people think you were arrogant about it, do you feel differently?

We have discussed this before. That was their problem. If you have time, I will go back through it again. When I was coming around noon. I told him when I am through with him, I will come. When I got in I said should I sit down sir? He was not looking into my face. He said there is a big problem. I asked, what is the problem, sir? He said the President said we should investigate you. But I said the matter has been put to the President and he has dismissed it. The President had invited me for an explanation and he had dismissed it. He said he told us to investigate you because of what he is reading in the papers. I told him it is good. He said this National Assembly thing is a trial by the media. They didn’t call me, and anytime I told them I wanted to show up, they say there is nothing to ask me for. It was a trial by the media. But somebody neutral on the matter finds the truth. And I have been cleared. He said, oh, okay. Then he said sit down and I sat down. He said the president didn’t say so. But an investigation is going. I said is that necessary? And he yes. They told me to go for a medical check because the president would not let me in. And he jokingly said the deputy secretary will now sit on the chair. But now, there is no deputy chair. He said the President might call you to state your side of the story. I said okay fine. I said would you want me to put in writing what you want me to come and discussed? So, I said when would that be? He said maybe Monday. And now it was Wednesday. I said okay, is that all? He said yes. And I stood up, as I was going out, the media people asked me whether I know if I was going on suspension because I was going to be investigated. I said, of course, if he says so. There is a system we established with the President. I asked him when did the President wants me to come. He said by Saturday. As I was going out, because it looks like the whole journalists were there, they ambushed me. They were not normally there. They normally stay on the President’s side. Now, they are all here, and somebody now asked, is it true you have been suspended? Something he said he would announce on Saturday. I was the last person to know that I have been suspended. I didn’t answer there. But said who informed you? That I have been suspended? So, we continued like that till I entered my car. I asked again, who told you this information? I said from who? They say from the Presidency. I said who signed the letter? Then I asked who the Presidency is. You are talking of the office of the SGF, and all the parastatals included.

What do you make of the Court case against you?

But the court said there is no case.

Does it mean that you are innocent?

In a democracy, you are allowed to defend yourself within the party.

Are you still a member of the APC?

Oh, yes. I am.

You have endorsed Peter Obi. Is it of your own volition or behalf of your group?
It is not like (Yakubu) Dogara and I are the only people in the movement. Long before now, Christians in APC, when we sense this threat, we quickly addressed it. The APC has not always treated the Christians well in the party. So, we have had to push for the inclusion of Christians in the party. We are about fourthly. The Muslim-Muslim ticket was dead on arrival. This was the first public comment on national television. So what do we do? The two of us continued to strategise on the next move. As we went on and of course, we felt that we could have accommodation. Some say let us do PDP and others said Labour Party. We took time to analyse the political terrain. We took time to analyze the political parties in light of the current dynamics. There is the cry of marginalization. Second, we felt that there is a need to choose a party that has the potential to win the election. So, that at least Christians will not be out of the political scene. So, we did all this despite the disagreement. Sincerely, APC didn’t bother to discuss this with us, and every one of them was behaving as if they don’t want us.

What is your relationship with Bola Ahmed?
He is my very good friend. I was one of those who encouraged him to pick the ticket. Politics is much more than that. The issue is that we have said we have been maltreated, and insulted with our religion. We have been told we have no capacity. So, we feel insulted. We feel our religion has been insulted. And anybody pretending about it, we have no business with him. Even with the president of the country where the whole paraphernalia of office was concentrated in one place. We felt cheated and oppressed. The issue is very existential.

NAS takes campaign against gender-based violence to Kaduna community

Do you think Christians are marginalised and oppressed at the moment?

Oh, my friend. It is terrible. You can check on the Internet. There are 27 schools in the North, both military and civilian, polytechnics, and colleges of education. No Christian has ever been considered to be vice-chancellor. Is it Bayero University? The University of Maiduguri, or Tafawa Balewa University? Even in Adamawa State, for 42 years, no Christian has ever been a vice-chancellor. That is how it is. When you become a vice chancellor on the basis that you are a Muslim, it goes to show that you are expected to perpetuate the same policy.

Is it that religion is a consideration or merit?
Religion is a consideration. If you go to any Federal Government office in Abuja, you will find Christians grumbling. They didn’t send us on training. Because we are Christians. They didn’t promote us because we are Christians. They don’t allow you to go so you don’t get allowances. Everywhere you don’t get the contract because you are a Christian, it is endemic. Every Christian in the North is a victim of this.

Why your choice of Peter Obi? Because he is not the only Christian?

First and foremost, we are politicians. We are a realist. We want to support the political party that has the potential to win, and the potential to rule. To address all the other dynamics in society. And this dynamics I have narrated one. Marginalisation. Insecurity and cry of exclusiveness. You look at it. There are only four political parties that come to mind during our discussion. We discussed with them except the APC the big party. Kwankwaso is good material for the president for example. We discussed it with him. But we looked at his tendency and chances of winning the election based on our parameters. It is very small. We looked at the Labour Party and we think the chances are very big. We think that a government run by Peter Obi and Datti will give Nigeria the desired peace. It will wean us from these hooligans.

Is there any commitment from Peter Obi before making your decision?
Look we don’t need a commitment. The issue is very simple. If you go to every Christian village in Nigeria, they will tell you. There might be no candidate for the other political parties but they will tell you we are doing Peter Obi. If you go to churches they will tell you we are doing Peter Obi.

Are you still an active pastor?
Yes.

What do you tell your congregation about the situation of things as a politician and as a clergy?
I am a Christian. I am a member of society. The worldview of the church is what influences my worldview. We discussed.

Is this a popular decision?
Very popular in the North. It is extremely popular. Of course, as I tell you, there are still some Christians who are hanging around APC for whatever is their reason. We don’t begrudge them. Some are in PDP. For the average Christian rank and file in the North, they are Labour Party.

The PDP and the APC think Peter Obi doesn’t stand a chance of winning the election. What do you see about it?
Every politician thinks that he is going to win an election. The parameters they used to assess their viability are only that who know about it. That is when a Nigerian loses an election they tell you they were rigged out. Once their close circle didn’t bother to find out about the larger community.

What gives you confidence that Peter Obi will win, and which part of the country do you think the votes will be coming from?
My thinking is that this election will go to a run-off.

Why do you think it won’t end on the first ballot?
The chances of it ending on the first ballot are slim. But one thing is that APC is not on this ballot.

What makes you think so?
As I told my friend before the ticket came up. I said if you are going to do a Muslim-Muslim ticket, the consequence is this. Every Christian in Nigeria will feel slighted not only in the North. Every Christian all over the world will feel slighted. And their religion was insulted. It is a fact that you think there is no Christian fit enough. You have broken a known convention. It has always been Muslim- Christian or Christian- Muslim. So, for some reason, you broke this convention and so Christians will take it personally. So, you will not get any vote from any Christian state. So, I said my friend if you are going to do a Muslim-Muslim ticket how on earth do you expect Atiku or Kwankwaso from the North to feel? Atiku, a Fulani Moslem? A Prince? This is his fifth run and every run has some accumulated experience and skills. You have not experienced the presidential election, and essentially you are relying on unreliable people. How are you going to get the votes in the North? My thinking is that Bola Tinubu will not get 25 per cent in Kebbi, Sokoto, Zamfara, Kano, Yobe, Borno, maybe Borno, he may get 25 per cent. But none in the Hausa Fulani states. He goes nowhere. Now he has fought the Christians. He has antagonised the Christians. He loses Adamawa because that is Atiku’s territory. He loses a state like Gombe, because of bad governance. The people have abandoned APC. He loses Taraba. Plateau, Benue, Nasarawa. He loses Kaduna South. Where is he going to get the votes? He will get the votes in the South-West because of affinity. It is our turn syndrome. Where is he going to get the votes in the South-West? During the convention, he didn’t even allow us to go to the South-East. He said it is a waste of time and money. So, the South-South is not his territory. Where is he going to get the votes? So, they are there. If they like they come third but depending on how Kwankwaso performs. He will do well in most of the Hausa states, particularly in Kano, Jigawa, Sokoto, and Katsina. He will do well in those areas. The good candidate that could not get into APC or PDP has taken the ticket from NNPP. A solid candidate that is electable will do well. Atiku will clear most of the Northern states. He will clear some states maybe one quarter or 25 per cent that he will get. Peter Obi, whenever Igbo people tell you, they will vote for him. They have five states. He will get 25 per cent and six of the South-South states. Obi will get 25 per cent in North-Central states and parts of the north-east. Southern Gombe, will give Peter Obi. There is no other party there. Adamawa, the rank and file don’t want to hear any other party there. It is part of the fact that it is Atiku’s territory.

Atiku/Okowa campaign council, PDP govs congratulate Adeleke

Some of the big guys in APC think you don’t weigh at all. What’s your take?
We don’t have weight, but they are panicking. They are panicked. So, why are they manufacturing fake bishops and CAN to address? It is total panic. See, when I look at my friend on television, I know who I see. I see somebody’s degeneration. Bola Tinubu. It is not the Bola we used to see. Every Nigerian look at Bola degeneration because of the tension. For the first time, it hit him that he will not win the election.

Don’t accuse the APC of floating the same faith ticket. What do you think that posed for society in terms of governance? Do you think they can’t govern well like that?
On a divided society? How will they govern? A society that is at war with its internal self? How are you going to govern me if ab-initio you have denigrated me?

If Section 19 of the Electoral Act forbids anyone from campaigning on ethnicity and religion. What do you make of it?
But what Bola Ahmed Tinubu did, was it right? Why is APC doing it based on religion? And why are they campaigning based on ethnicity? He said it is the turn of the South-west. And he said even in the South-West it is his turn? Is that not ethnicity?

Should Peter Obi not win this election, what would you do?
I gain nothing from politics. I am a very successful farmer. I gain nothing from politics.