In defending a few gaffes that have attracted criticisms, Senate Chief Whip, Senate Orji Kalu, speaks on the capacity of the presidential candidate of the All Progressives Congress (APC), Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, to pilot the affairs of the country if given the mandate. The former governor of Abia State, who talked on other political intrigues ahead of the general elections, during a Channels TV ‘Political Paradigm’ monitored by Deborah Onyofufeke, noted that most Nigerians above the age of 40 have health challenges

The 1999 to 2007 governorship position you occupied at 39, you were governor of Abia State. I think several persons who would look back at that period would want to know how you were able to go through electoral processes at the time, coming from military rule to governing Abia at the age of 39

Well, it was a very interesting moment for me and the people of Abia state, it was tough but real. Sometimes you feel like crying, sometimes you feel like should I end this thing today because it was very difficult to govern Abia at that stage but we did our best and our best was good enough for the Abia people. We put certain things, and there were hard decisions that had to be taken and they were taken, so, I continue to lead people, first, our state was very united when I was governor, I brought everybody together, fought a common cause which was the development of our state, taking our state to a higher level, making sure that we brought education to be free, we brought the tertiary institutions to fund them very well, the College of Education in Arochukwu, the School of Health Technology in Aba, the Polytechnic in Aba, and the Abia State University, were a very cardinal point which I march to make sure that the state’s education can go anywhere.

It’s sad that since after the 1999 era, we’ve not had a governor below 40, and quite a number of the persons who will be going to the polls in 2023, were not born when you were governor and they are used to the older persons occupying those kinds of positions. What does that say about our political evolution?

There are a lot of younger ones running now and it beholds on the younger people to elect younger people so the people who followed me, believed my message and I was very aggressive, I came from the private sector to become governor and I had all it takes to become governor so, younger people are busy abusing elderly people instead of them to work harder to make sure they put themselves in the line of succession. If you go to the internet, people are abusing you, people are saying all kinds of things instead of them learning you can see this is why my community in Ebere is a different place altogether, I don’t know if you have watched it, you would have seen the cultural festival we did on the 2nd of January this year, it was very successful and you see the respect between the little, the big and the small. So, Nigeria needs to go back to respecting its elders because we have derailed. There is no mentorship between our younger ones and elderly people because the younger ones are just busy thinking their life is their life. It’s a life of hard work, you need to come out and work harder and be able to do spectacular things. Work towards being successful. I was very successful in the private sector before I came into politics and I am still successful in the private sector so, I am not sure that since 1999, any governor was as successful as I was as a private sector driver. But is the blame solely on the younger people because you talked about mentorship, you talked about the need for them to learn? Some will say the system, the political system as it is now does not favour young people as a lot of young people have put themselves forward for positions but they don’t emerge at the political primaries. Let’s take you for example, in the beginning, what processes helped you to emerge to the point you achieved what you achieved. I was ready for leadership, I was trained to be a leader and I followed up on things and I was determined to be a leader myself. There were a lot of elderly people 60 then, 62, who ran for the election but the younger people supported me because of the radical ideas I had and they believed in those ideas so we moved on and this is why everything we did in our state then, was for the people not for anybody and that’s why my popularity in the state is still intact till tomorrow.

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You’ve been in the senate for almost the past four years now, but it would seem that your return in 2023 is being threatened, members of your party in your state are accusing you of anti-party activities they are saying that you are supporting your brother who is in the APP as against the APC governorship candidate in your state. What is your reaction to that?
Those things are side talks. My brother is an adult, I don’t want to say here what happened as to why my brother left the party. My brother was a very strong member of APC and he wanted to leave, I called the National chairman, Senator Abdullahi Adamu who happens to be my colleague as governor, my colleague as a senator, and now the National Chairman. I said this young man wants to leave the party, is there anything we can do to remedy him? Not to leave the party? They did not do anything. He said to him, please don’t go. I called the Deputy National Chairman, North, Senator Abubakar Kyari, who also is my colleague and he has been my banker for a long, I’ve known him all my life for forty-something years. I called him, and he had lunch and dinner with my brother, came to me we tried to plead with him, but nothing was done. I called the National deputy chairman for the entire south, Chief Emmanuel Enugu, he spoke to my brother, but my brother refused. I called the governorship candidate, he is alive, and you can interview him, I invited him here. I said the greatest challenge you will have as a governorship candidate if my brother broke out of the party, will have problems.

Why?
Because he was Chief of staff to a particular governor at the same time, he has his strength as I do.

So, you wanted your brother to be governor?
No. You don’t understand me. I asked Chief Ikechi Emedike the governorship candidate of APC before even the primary when we agreed he was going to be. I called him here, and I said let me make the appointment, we will go and see president Buhari, so he can do the talking that we have a problem, and the problem is my brother. Let them find him executive director or something somewhere either executive or non-executive for four years so that he can leave us to go and do our governorship in Abia. Chief Ikechi Emerike told me after primaries and after the primaries, he didn’t come back to me and after the primaries in June, my brother found a new political party.

Your old party?
No. It’s not my old party.

APP?
No. My old party was PPA. I don’t know the owners of this party. What people are saying is wrong, and rubbish. Go and check from INEC. PPA was our former party, I don’t know who is the owner of this party, and I never discussed this party with my brother, my brother is an adult, and his competent to taking his own decision, he’s not the first, in Kwara, the Saraki’s were in different parties even their father. This is just my brother, I am not his father, he has his wife, he has his children, he has his family to make decisions and any decision he makes is his, not mine. I’m in APC and I’m in APC. I try to rally, even the senate president I complained to him. They spoke to him all of them. So, what do you expect me to do? I complained to the presidential candidate of our party, Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu, so I don’t know what anybody will expect me to do.

So you say that the APC in Abia State is likely to lose the governorship because of your brother?
No. I have not said so, I am saying that it can cause us a lot of headaches.

Who are you supporting? Because clearly, you are being accused of supporting your brother
I have never done anything to support my brother.

Let me tell you what they said, the stakeholders last year said you appeared before them and told them to vote for Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, vote for you for senate but for the governorship, vote for the APP
I have never told anybody to vote for the APP. I have told them they must vote for Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu and vote for me.

How about the governorship election in the state, who should they vote for?
It is their own decision, not my own decision. Even when I tell you to vote for anybody, at the point of voting, you will make your decision. I am campaigning for APC to win.

But you are not considering that when you are talking about Tinubu, you are not considering that when you are talking about yourself but when it comes to governorship

I told them to vote for APC all the way. That is the truth but at the point of voting, they accused me, I heard somebody telling them that I opened the Orji Uzor Kalu movement because of that. The Orji Uzor Kalu movement has been there since I became governor, and the reality organization movement has been there since I became governor, and nobody in Abia should take these two movements for granted. They are everywhere in the state.

Senator how would you access your time in the senate so far, I mean you came into the senate for the first time and you were made the Chief Whip and many applauded you because that’s not a small fit to be a principal officer in a first term but beyond that, let’s talk your representation of your people because we are going into the elections. How would you access your performance and the acceptability of your people?
I want to thank my party the APC because they gave me the position. I never asked for that position, I was in this house one day, former governor of Edo state who was the National chaiChairmanthe party called me and said I am coming to see you now. I am by the villa. He came, and he asked me, we have this position, we have this position, and the party and the presidency have asked you to choose one. I said do I have time to think about it? He said yes. I said give me two days or three days to think about it. So, I went to one of my friends who was a majority leader of the senate before and I asked him what positions, which will you wanted me to take, he said I know you are a very busy person, so he said take this don’t take this. So, I went back to governor Oshiomhole, I went to his house and said let me have the Chief Whip and the party nominated me. It was the benevolence of the party and the National Chairman of the party and the president, Commander-in-Chief, Muhammadu Buhari. They gave me that position, I never lobbied anybody I never asked for it. They gave it to me and this is why, on the floor of the Senate, you guys working there also know that I defend everything about APC, about the party. The interest first is our party and the second interest is the Nigerian people.

Do you prioritise your party over the country?
No, I said the first interest of the senate is the people I represent and the entire Nigeria people and the second is the interest of the party. The party comes first when we are taken into caucus, secondly, on the floor of the House, there are other political parties we have talked about the interest of our party. The interest of Nigeria is superior to any other interest but when we are in the Senate, the party, comes first.

When you keep saying comes first, it’s confusing
No. In terms of law-making, for Nigerian people, that comes first. Nigeria people come first in anything we do because they have allowed us to come and serve. In terms of party caucus inside the senate, my party comes first before the opposition party. So, we are there defending the cause of our party, no compromise, and let me be honest with you, our party has never for one day, given out a directive to vote here or vote there. We have voted according to our conscience, every senator in APC I don’t know about the opposing party. Nobody has asked us to vote there. No National chairman has called us, no National Secretary has called us, and no NWC member has called us to vote there. My colleagues are there, you can ask them.

Would you like to be Senate President?

Well, it’s a very hard question because this is what I always ask people, your colleagues have asked me before if I would like to be President of Nigeria. I said yes if it is zoned to the South-East. My answer to you is yes, if the party zone is to the South-East, why not? Because the party is supreme. I will be very willing to serve my people.

The reason for the question is should your party win the presidential election in 2023, the permutation is that the South East is likely to produce the next senate president. Do you think you are the number one person for that position if that option opens?

No. I can never say that. We have Governor Hope Uzodinma, we have Governor Dave Umahi, we have the party itself, we have the National Chairman of the party mind you also, and the Deputy National Chairman from man South comes from Enugu State. So, we have the NWC, we have these people. It is only the collective job of these people if they yes, go and be if it is given to our area because they can put anybody they like. Whether I am qualified or not qualified, the important thing is that there are two strong governors there, in our party, they are very strong, and in their constituencies, they are very strong. The National Chairman of the party is very strong on his own and the members of the NWC are very strong.

But I think the interesting thing is that you are open to the idea, you are open to the position
If I’m given it, I will take but I am not going to fight for it.

You are a strong defender of your party, you are also a strong defender of Ahmed Lawan
Yes

Should you become the President of the Senate in the next assembly, what would you do differently from him?
I am not yet there, when I get to the ‘River Niger’ I will be prepared to cross.

I mean but you should be prepared
No. I cannot get prepared for what I have not been given but I am always very prepared to do my job I cannot say what I will do differently. All I know is I will always do my job, do the best, the good things he has done, I will follow. If there is anything that our president views we have not done well, I will drop them and I will continue.

You will not openly question his time so far
Who told you? If I have the opportunity I will question him. I am that radical.

But has he performed well?
Let me tell you, I am not saying it for anything. Collectively, Ahmed Lawan, the Ninth Senate is one of the best senates we have had since 1999, we have been able to make difficult bills become Acts without looking at anybody’s face, and we have been able to hold strong. When people say we are rubber-stamped, I laugh. We’ve always signed unity with the executive, we’ve rejected more things from President Buhari than we get. We have rejected a lot of papers but quietly.

Recall that senator Ahmed Lawan had said that anything the President brings, any request he brings will be approved by the senate because he believes that the President means well for the country

I am saying also there are things the president brings, and we return them to him.

What’s your take on the Ways and Means and advance of the request of the President? You heard an argument on the floor of the senate which prompted a close door session and then putting a hold on that document. What do you think about it the argument is that there were some illegalities around it?

Yes. There were illegalities I can tell you that but I am not going to give you the pleasure of discussing it.

No, I mean it’s the people’s money?
Even Senator Ahmed Lawan agrees that there are illegalities. Nobody does agree that there are illegalities.

So, is the senate going to clean that up or is the senate going to throw that away?
You remember will set up a committee, but I cannot prompt what the committee will do. This is the first time since I came to the senate that the president of the senate is setting up a committee led by Ahmed Lawan. They set up a committee where other members of committees, are the chairman of works, chairman of banking and finance, chairman of loans, and other committees. They are all members, members are members, leaders and myself are members of that committee.

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You own businesses and you have hired the best hands and that’s why your businesses are thriving, I will like to believe that.

Yes of course.

So, beyond being a party member, what makes you believe that Asiwaju Bola Tinubu is the best man for the job?
Let me be honest with you, you know I have known him for a very long time, I think even when people complain, it’s not true because his health is very stable. No man above 40 is not sick. There is no Nigerian above 40 that is not sick. I can tell you, it is only how you manage yourself. Asiwaju Ahmed Tinubu will be one of the greatest presidents that we will have because he has the power of delegation like you just said now that I delegated my business to people to run. The modern way of leading people is no longer holding everything to yourself, you must delegate the job and he has done it. Consistently, why Lagos is growing because the leadership has consistently been under one group and the leadership has been through one political party since 1999. So consistency matters a lot, this is why when people were saying the president was not going to support Ahmed Tinubu, we went back to the president, we told the president it’s about our party, it’s not about anybody can vote for anybody and you see the president has come out in full force to say I am going to campaign on his own. You know the president is a very honest man, an unassuming man, he has done a lot for Nigeria but there is no perfect leader. There’s nothing you can do that will make people say this is the best leader until when you’ve gone away, they start saying they will rather have him back. This is how the world is, I believe that Tinubu will do a lot of things differently for benefit of business people. Lagos is a business centre and he knows, you cannot govern without business people. We have to enter into a strong partnership with business people so, I believe we will do something very different from June this year.

You know you had mentioned the issue of health and how expectedly, someone of that age should have some health challenges

I never said he has health challenges, I said nobody above 40. Remember when President Buhari was here, one of your colleagues fought with me on camera? I said Buhari is coming back from London to here, and not only coming back, but he will also contest for the election and win the election.

So, you agree that it’s almost impossible for someone his age to not have health challenges.
Impossible.

Absolutely. But there are concerns now as to how that is playing out now.

No. There are no concerns.
The campaigns he has held, some of the rallies so far, and his words, many have described as gibberish, they said he sounded incoherent

It’s not true.

Do you understand the words that he says?
You, people, have even said that the Buhari living in the villa is not Buhari and that it is Jibril.

This is not Buhari

This is just to get you on record. You guys have all called Buhari all sorts of names.

You guys?
Yea. You people in this business.

Not us. We will never do that. We are just drawing attention to what is
The health concerns of Tinubu. Tinubu has no health Concerns.

Do you understand the words that he’s been saying?
What words?

Can I give you an example? You’ve heard the conversations of Balablu, Bulaba, you’ve also heard the conversations of when he talked about the yahoo boys.
No. These are things you people go to form.

Do we form them?
Yes of course. You use the internet and the rest of them to do it.

You are saying now that he didn’t say it?
No, I don’t believe you. I wasn’t there but I don’t believe you. It could be forged by political opponents, there is a lot of fake news. You can use the internet and the camera to do whatever you want to do.

If you have been following the polls.
Which polls? Made by who?

Are you dismissing the polls?
Of course yes. I have no interest in the polls.

But you are not concerned about the methodology of the poll?
No.

Because it doesn’t favour your party?
We are the number one party, we are the largest. Let me tell you, it can only take God’s intervention for us not to win the election because we are larger in number, we are more practical, we are working, President Buhari has made the best investment like the Niger bridge, we had no Niger bridge before and we are working very hard and Tinubu is working everywhere day and night. The man goes to bed at 3am and you tell me he is not well, he’s traveling everywhere and every day, he’s first to wake up anywhere they go.

Why did you say you don’t believe in the polls?
I don’t believe in the polls because they are not being realistic if this poll wants to be realistic, Kwankwaso and Peter Obi are working for us.

They are working for you?
Yes of course because nobody has touched our base. The strongest base of APC is untouched.

Where is that?
North-West and North-East are our bases. Come to South-East, it is divided come to South-South it’s finished with obedience. We have two presidential candidates strong, from the North-East and North-West, Rabiu Kwankwanso and Atiku Abubakar. Nobody has touched our base, our base is intact it’s as good, and neat as anything.

You know while you say you don’t believe in the polls, I was speaking with Dr Oby Ezekwesili and she said that the methodology of those polls is quite accurate but beyond that, she says that why you will have someone like Peter Obi in the lead, is due to his level of engagement with the people in terms of town hall meetings and debates?

No. Let me ask you a question, these polls are done in Abuja, Lagos these polls are not done in Birnin Kebbi, and they are not done in my village. These polls are done between Port-Harcourt, Lagos, and Abuja, they have not done it to where my grandmother will vote. These opinion polls are just polls, I can stay in my house now and put a poll. Let me give you why I think will come, Tinubu will come distant first, Atiku will come distant second and others will follow. I don’t want to disclose names. Politics is not about sentiments.People are putting a lot of sentiments about this. I am an Igbo man, where am I going to get the votes? I had four forms that people bought for me during the primaries and I told them I will not run. I can only run this election if all 18 political parties zone their presidential candidates to south East because we don’t have the numbers to follow it up.

Not only do you not have the numbers, but you have also talked about the support. You don’t have support from the other zones

Yes, you need support from the other zone.

Why do you think that the Igbo do not have support from the other zones?

Well, the other zones have been with us, what was the major factor was for the last seven years, the issue of IPOB and Biafra agitation changed the scenario. This is the truth and people don’t like saying the truth. I am not afraid of saying the truth. It changed the scenario. People will tell you we don’t trust Igbos they can divide the country. It’s not true. I’m Nigerian, I am Igbo first an Ibere man. Being an Iberean man coming from Abia and being a Nigerian, this is what I see myself.

But there is agitation in the south west how is it that has not affected the level of trust from the other regions?

This is what I cannot politically fathom though the agitation in the southwest is not like the one in the southeast. It’s not the same. The agitation in south East is heavy because Nigeria and Nigerian people need to find a solution to the South-East.

What then do you think of the endorsement of Peter Obi who is from the Southeast? He is getting endorsements from the South-West

Who is endorsing him?

Former President Olusegun Obasanjo, Afenifere has endorsed him

Let me tell you, ex-President Olusegun Obasanjo is just being a hypocrite because when he was president, he stopped Peter Odili. If he wanted an Igbo to be president, he could have put Peter Odili.

Peter Odili is from River State

He’s an Igbo man. Forget it what is his name is it not Odili? He could have put Peter Odili but he killed that dream because he’s Igbo. So he’s just coming to destabilise. In the letter I wrote to him when he was president, he has not answered till today

Maybe he’s trying to make amends now.

No. He cannot make amends because he’s been a hypocrite and it’s not good. He never sees any good. Look at his letter to President Buhari. With due respect he could have given an Igbo man ticket in 2003, 2007 he could have given an Igbo man the president. He’s not being realistic. He knows that Obi has not gotten the force to be president now because you need other regions. You need all the regions. Because Obasanjo is not the leader of other regions. So I can’t take that endorsement to the bank.

Do you condemn endorsements generally or are you condemning this particular set of endorsements for Peter Obi?

I am not condemning any endorsements. I don’t want to talk about Edwin Clark, he’s my boss, and I cherish him so much I don’t want to talk about him. Edwin Clark has never been a president. Obasanjo was a president whom Peter Odili had emerged as the candidate of PDP, he stopped him. So, what changed when he knows we had the force, we were PDP everywhere then and he stopped him.

Are you taking the same position as members of your party that Obasanjo’s endorsement amounts to nothing?

For me, I was with Obasanjo in 1999 where we voted. We lost in that polling unit.

But why did your candidate go to visit him?

Because he’s an elder state man like I’m planning to visit him. Why not he’s a friend. He’s an elder, you pay respect to elders whether they agree with you or not. It doesn’t make any meaning, you can visit. He’s an elder statesman of this country and elders should not be deceitful.

Do you think his being distasteful?

Yes. You should know that.

Would you have had the same opinion if he had endorsed Asiwaju Bola Tinubu?

Well, I might. It depends on the scenario. The scenario is not the same.

What are the chances of the APC in your state in the 2023 presidential elections?

We will work very hard, our chances are very bright.