President of the Academic Staff Union of Universities (ASUU) Prof Emmanuel Osodoke, believes that the Federal Government deliberately allowed the strike to drag on for this long to threaten lecturers with the no-work no-pay policy. In this Channels TV Sunrise Daily interview monitored by DEBORAH ONYOFUFEKE, the union president speaks on other related issues.

Now that the government has said no work, no pay, what’s next for ASUU?

We are equally surprised that the union went on strike, first of all, it was just for four weeks, and the minister and all other ministers, did not respond at all, we extended it by 12 weeks, but they didn’t respond, we extended again by four weeks before we heard the President giving him two weeks to resolve this problem only for him to come and say it’s not two weeks which means they are inconsistent amongst themselves. The question that Nigerians should ask this minister and this government is if a union goes on strike and say for four weeks, why did they deliberately keep quiet and not do anything, knowing that all the students in Nigeria will be at home? They extended it by 12 weeks, they didn’t do anything, were they just trying to see how they can save money by ensuring that the strike lingers for a long time, that’s the impression I’m having, that they deliberately kept this strike this long so that they can say we will not pay you, and I think using that, maybe they can save money to pay their fuel subsidy. So, it is so sad, that you allow the children of the poor to stay at home, just because you want to save money to pay fuel subsidies or whatever they are talking about. I think it’s so sad and honestly, we trusted this minister, we believed in him, but what we are seeing not, it shows that there is no difference between him and that of labour minister, Chris Ngige.

What exactly is the expectation of ASUU members, is it that when you go on strike as labour union, no matter how long, you expect to get paid?

Let me tell you the difference between ASUU and other labour unions. When you go on strike and you come back, all those periods for which you were on strike, you don’t need to go and do work. The backlog, But for ASUU, when we go back today, we are going to go and start from the 2020/2021 session, all these two sets of students that have been admitted by JAMB, we have to teach them over this period, to ensure that we meet up with the system. So, we are going to do the backlog of the work that we have left behind, we are not going to start today and say this session is in 2022/2023, therefore, all these two sets of people that have been admitted by JAMB are cancelled, we have to take our admission in 2023/2024, that is the difference between the two unions. We are going back to do the work.

You haven’t quite answered my question, I can appreciate the difference, but I would like to know exactly what the practice should be. From what I understand, union members pay dues and whenever there is strike action, unions should be able to comfortably pay their members for however long it is that they are telling their employers that they will not be at work. Isn’t that supposed to be the practice?

What I have said is that if we agree on that, therefore, all the lectures that we should have taught for 2020, 2021, and 2022, they should be allowed to go. We start from a new session, 2022/2023, with effect from September, which is when a new session should start and, therefore, by July next year, I will go on my leave as we use to have in those days. So, that the backlogs are gone, all the lectures that are remaining, all the two sets of admission that JAMB has done that are waiting, they become irrelevant. Let me also tell you, we take care of our members. I know where this your idea is going, we have been on strike, this is the seventh month and our members are not complaining, so, it’s not you who will complain for our members, we take care of our member’s welfare.

I’m asking what the practice is, I am not asking whether you take care of your members or not.

The practice is that the academic staff is different from all other workers. The practice all over time, since 1982 till today, is that because we are doing the backlogs of what we are supposed to have done during those periods we are going to back, have you seen lecturers going on leave in those days, we take three months leave

You must admit that that time can never be regained, that time is lost, what it means is that it is the children who have lost their time in school. I mean a programme that would normally take four years, even if you were to go back and do the curriculum, you will finish in five years. Isn’t that the situation?

We are not paid per time, we are paid per work done. That is to say no work no pay, not no time no pay. So, get it right. We are paid for work done not the time. So you will go and do the work for when you are not paid and two, I am surprised that this has become the main issue.

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If you say you are not paid per time but work, what exactly do you use to do the work, isn’t it the time that you use to complete the task?

Let me give it to you, a typical session in a calendar is eight months, 34 weeks is a typical session and for a normal system, check all over the world, the period that uses one, to go for your leave and relax, and two, do your research work, but now we spend all these period to ensure we meet up. We have been sacrificing our leaves, no lecturer in the Nigerian university for the past 10 to 15yrs has gone on leave- that is the difference and academic staff programme, academic staff workers, when I started work, my appointment letter said we would do three things. Teaching, research, and community service. So all that we have left behind during this period is teaching. We are still doing the research and community service. So it’s not correct that when you are on strike, you lose everything. It’s not true.

When you were speaking about the implications, perhaps if ASUU were to accept the “work done and not done” which are you likely going to do if you were to resume, has that conversation ever come up with the government?

You see, my real surprise about this is why are we talking about pay, we are talking about issues on the ground. We are happy to go back to work. ASUU, when the minister will come, if we were to talk about the issues when the reopens, we are talking about the punishment, we are talking about threats, about blackmail. We should be talking about the government doing the needful and ensuring that when the university reopens, the students get the quality education that they deserve. Not to start talking about payment and no payment. I mean these are inconsequential issues. The issue of paying six months’ arrears, should not come into question

The FG said all the offers made which were accepted by the other unions, ASUU turned down. Could you speak about this?

I still want to say again, that the issue of whether you pay for six months or not is inconsequential and should not occupy Nigerians’ time. We expect the government to come and tell the Nigerian public one, what have they decided on, on the issue of revitalization, two, what have they decided on, on the issue of UTAS, that they have tested and the minister agreed yesterday that UTAS, came first and IPIS came last, IPIS that they have been promoting came last. To solve the problem of mismanagement of our fund three, what have they done on the issue of earned academic allowance, backlog, over six, seven years? Have they released several panel reports, five, what are they doing about the issue of proliferation of universities? These are the issues that should occupy Nigerians’ time. Not whether they pay our members or not. We can handle that. I don’t think those should be our issues. On the issue of other unions, you see, ASUU is quite different from other unions. By today, if not for our struggle since 1992, we will not have universities today. The issue of TETFund that now fund all the state universities and federal universities, if not for ASUU struggle, we will not have it. That we have 95 per cent of Nigerian students in public universities and only 5 per cent in private, for a long time now, the teachers in many universities are on strike, have you heard anyone say they worked on this, because the private is captured. As we speak, throughout our strike, did anybody talk about no work no pay? It is because the private sector has occupied them. The reason why we still have public universities today and that’s why we are having this attack and those of them who are attacking us, if you look at it, it’s because they have interest in private universities and all their children are grown up because they are not affected. But we will see that we have a good university that our students can attend. We are not like most of them. So, we are not like other unions. If they want to withdraw, they can. We didn’t come together, we didn’t start the strike together, it’s not a joint strike, so, it’s not our business if some of them have gone out, it is our business to ensure that the universities, they work. That our students come from other parts of the world, having lecturers all over the world teaching them. That’s what we want. We are not interested in all these issues of no work and no pay, to me they are inconsequential, and we should not waste our time on it

Did the Federal Government through the Minister of Education make an offer that ASUU turned down and if indeed, it made an offer that ASUU turned down, what is this offer and why did ASUU turn it down?

You remember during the era of Abdulsalami Abubakar, they gave us an award and we rejected it then. In ASUU, we don’t accept awards, we negotiate our wages through collective bargaining, not the minister, awarding us something. We have passed through that process of collective bargaining and concluded, that they should respond to it and not dash our salary. That’s what we are saying. Let’s follow the principle. If they dash us today, or tomorrow, they can withdraw it, if there is no collective bargaining so they should come to collective bargaining and we have finished with that.

Is it a confirmation now that SANU had said earlier on that whatever negotiations ASUU is making with the Federal Government will not be bound by it and how much of this division has affected the result of the resolve of education unions as a whole, as a struggle to have the universities revitalised

Let me say this again, ASUU is in a struggle and I am the president of ASUU, representing ASUU not NASU, not SSANU. They are on their own. We can’t negotiate for them. If they accept that their salaries be withheld, if they accept that they don’t want revitalization fund paid to them, they don’t want any of these things we asking about, it’s their business, it’s not our business. Ask me questions about ASUU, not other unions. There’s no comparison, we don’t have any conflict, we are separate unions.

ASUU is a union, and ASUU operates under the laws that unions are guided by one of the things that you have quoted is the 1981 FG, ASUU method of collective bargaining, wages bought and industrial councils number 1 of 1973, trade dispute Act of 1966, high low conventions of 1948, ASUU recognises that it is operating under the same laws that govern all the unions. That’s the reason all these questions are being asked that way. Concerning the issues of no work, no pay thing, those who believe say it is within the confines of the law to put in the no work, no pay rule. That the laws of Nigeria and even international, also guide some of these no work, no pay rules. Is there anywhere in any of those rules that ASUU or the Federal Government says the university sector of the unions is extricated from those laws? Is there an exception that exempts ASUU from the no work, no pay rule?

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I want to say it again, we are a union of intellectuals, if you have any part of the law, or court judgement that says no work, no pay could you quote it please?

ASUU is a union, unless you are saying there is a separate law that governs the academia, it’s just a question we are asking, just to gain clarity so that people can also sympathize with ASUU and say based on this, that is why ASUU is taking this disposition. So, I am just asking if there is any corner of the law that extricates the academia from the no work, no pay rule, if the government decides, they are going to go with it?

Can you also quote that particular law and the court Judgement that says when a lecturer is on strike and is going to do the backlog of the work that was left behind while he was on strike, he cannot negotiate for payment? That’s where you have the negotiation. Simple.

The reason this is coming up is that some believe while sympathising with ASUU, do listen to the Federal Government and say the county is in dire straits, financially. So, if you look at it, these issues arise and when you look at the backlog they are going to pay, it’s probably going to just elongate the process if the government is unable to pay. It’s not like they said they are not going to pay but that they are unable to pay. You have spoken to that part as well, that the government is giving baseless excuses as to whether they can pay or not. Can you validate that indeed?

Let me put it straight at us that we should not waste our time on this issue. We started a strike in February, the Federal Government forced us to go on strike because they refused to implement the agreement they signed through collective bargaining in 2009 and you force a union to go on strike, and the union started the strike just like every other part of the world, instead of intervening, you decided to wait to ensure that the period accumulates, please, place the blame properly. Did we force ourselves on strike, we have signed five memoranda of understanding, a memorandum of action, and how to implement this over this period, and this government refused. Completely refused to implement them so we sit down and clap for them and allow Nigerian universities to degenerate, what we are doing should be commended by the public because any day we let down this guard, the children of the ordinary Nigerian, not the politician, will be forced out of the university system because the government’s intention, what they are doing now, is to force us in such a way that they can introduce the tuition fee they have been talking about. That’s the idea. So we will not let you down. Like I said again, let’s discuss issues for which we are on strike, let’s discuss why our universities are in such a way that we don’t have foreign students, we don’t have foreign lecturers, let’s discuss why the children of the rich are going outside and spending billions of dollars, to take care of their children and killing our universities. That’s what we should be discussing

One of those issues is the UTAS, as well, you said the last time raising a lot of excitement and hope, in no time, the UTAS seem to have been approved and accepted by the government, but then we also hear that is not the case. On that, what exactly is happening?

When you have people talking from both sides of the mouth, when we met with this minister, he told us that the issue of UTAS and IPIS have been resolved and that when the test was carried out on the three solutions, UTAS, came top on two of the three items stated and that UPIS was top in one, second in one and last in one, while IPPIS was last in two and second in one and based on that, they are jettisoning the issue of IPPIS and will accept UTAS in conjunction with IPPIS. Then he said it yesterday again that IPPIS came in distant last. He mentioned it and then the minister will now come to the public again and say he didn’t say so when the chief of staff convened a meeting as directed by the president, that we should check the three and send the number one and they’ve tested and UTAS came number 1 and now his saying that we didn’t accept it. It’s so sad. If you say you didn’t accept it, why did you say you resolved all the issues of no work no pay? That is the inconsistent you have in the system

So, Prof, when the government says we didn’t say that UTAS is approved as the payment platform, what is the conclusion still because it is confusing still to both parties?

That’s what I have said as of now, the government has not come out with any concrete decision on all the other issues. They’ve not given us a report and you are going on air to lie to the public that you have accepted everything except the issue of no work, no pay, to blackmail us, they should come out with documentation that centres on all the issues that were listed. That’s what we are seeing in this country

Because the minister also said that the institutions control the internally generated revenue of those schools and so he was trying to make a point that the schools have some finance that they could do certain things with. Is that the case?

You see, one of the reasons we went on strike is that the government should investigate all the universities by setting visitation panels to go to the universities and investigate them, and come out with a white paper report and the log was very clear that every five years, the government will send a visitation panel to the universities, to look at how the finances are run, how it is administered, and every five years. We had to go on strike before this government agreed to set up a panel and after 11 years, that panel was set up in march last year. Till now, the report is not out.

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So if the report is out, the government can tell the public how they fund the system, and how it is managed but we are the ones forcing the government to investigate the system and they are refusing. So, that is the issue. Do you know what it takes to run the university? Just like the university of Ibadan, do you know how much the government gives them on annual basis to run the university, less than 500 million? The payment for electricity in Ibadan alone is more than one billion in a year. You can check. In UNILAG, more than one billion in a year. You can check so, what we are saying, if there is an infraction in the system, the visitor must send his panel to look at it and punish those who have mismanaged the fund but they have refused. After 11yrs, the law says five years and we are the one who is forcing this government to go and investigate them and produce the report. This thing has been done more than a year and six months ago and the report is still not out. So, that you know how the internal Generated revenue is spent. Do you also know, that the national university is also forcing the university, from the stipends they get from the students, to pay for ID cards, and pay for a hostel, they are forcing the university to remit 26 per cent to the federal allocation account. I don’t know anywhere in the world, where the university becomes a fund generation institution. You can ask that. The university is now a revenue generation agency. The vice-chancellors will not tell you this but that is what they are doing to them

This claim that the FG has spent N6trn they said, in seven years through TETFund in universities. How would you rate the role of TETFund so far and their interventions in the Nigerian universities? Do you think there’s anything we can learn from there?

TETFund has been there since 1992, has it ever been audited anytime? Who runs the fund? The TETFund is being run by a politician. When the TETFund was set up, ASUU was a member of the board to control the mismanagement of the fund but somewhere along the line, ASUU was edged out. So I want this federal Government, if they are sincere that they spent this 6trillion, on the university, they should set up a high panel, a judicial panel on TETFund and look at how that money has been managed. If what they are saying is true. It’s not just coming to speak, set up a high-powered judicial panel, with all major stakeholders in Nigeria, the companies and those who pay the tax, members of that committee, let them thoroughly investigate TETFund, to show whether what they have said is correct, whether that money went to the universities or went to some people’s pocket. We are in a country where termites can destroy documents and materials, where the snake can swallow money. Let them check if the money they are talking about went to the universities or if it was eaten up by termites or snake

Have you heard about the new Academic Staff Group? It appears they are having a meeting today. Have you heard about them?

I think I have heard about a group that calls themselves CONUA but it doesn’t exist. For you to have a trade Union, you must be registered with the registrar of the trade Union, you must have a certificate of registration. So anybody can come up and call themselves all sorts of things. We’ve seen so many of them, we’ve seen management ASUU, all sorts of things, to me they don’t exist and when the government starts dealing with illegal groups, it will show how far the government is going.

“It is so sad, that you allow the children of the poor to stay at home, just because you want to save money to pay fuel subsidy or whatever they are talking about. I think it’s so sad and honestly, we trusted this minister, we believed in him, but what we are seeing not, it shows that there is no difference between him and that labour