W’ Bank N570bn loan to states meant for specific projects, not hardship palliative- Sule, Nasarawa gov

Nasarawa State Governor, Abdullahi Sule, said the loans received from the World Bank by state governors are meant for special projects, and should not be diverted to any other purpose or used as hardship palliatives. In this interview on Channels TV ‘Politics Today’ monitored by David Lawani, the Governor, among other sundry issues, said all the funds received so far by his state had been tied to specific projects and not used to cushion the effects of hardship

Can you tell Nigerians why more funds are going to the states but there is nothing much to show for them? Has your state got the funds?

Yes, I got N27bn. It came in June this year. There is a little misunderstanding about the N570bn. A few days ago, I saw my dear brother, Senator Uba Sani on the programme who capitalised on the same issue that Femi Falana (SAN) also spoke about. The governors must come together clearly. From the beginning, when the issues came up, there was also tension in the country. There were a lot of issues about this protest and every governor in his state is trying to control it.  The governors felt there was no need to explain in order not to create more tension in the country. The governors showed some level of maturity to take on the heat. But there was a bit of misunderstanding about the N570bn, and I will tell you how it came about. First, N135bn was disbursed under a programme called: Nigeria Community Action for Resilience and Economic Stimulus- codenamed NGKS. That money came from the World Bank and it came in November last year. The actual amount was credited to the accounts of every state sometimes around the end of January or February, depending on the state. Indeed, Nasarawa State got a total of N113bn. That money is meant for certain projects. It is almost like a regimented loan from the World Bank.

What is the repayment like?

The World Bank is doing it at no interest. The reason is because, just like the name, it is coming to support states because of COVID-19- it started around 2020. The first disbursement was done even before Mr President came in May 2023. The second disbursement was when Mr President had been elected. The third disbursement was done again in June. All of them were supposed to be advertised. It is a requirement by the World Bank. That the money must be advertised- all three instalments have been fully paid. Every state’s account has been credited. No state is denying it. The only thing that the states need to explain so that people will understand is that the money is not meant to cushion the effects of the economic hardship that people are facing because this is money that is tied to certain projects. For instance in Nasarawa State, part of the money was to be used for the construction of two kilometre rural roads in every rural area. This is 15 kilometre and we ended up doing over 227 rural kilometre roads in the state. It is supposed to go to communities where there is no water. A borehole was drilled for them and solar power was too. It is supposed to go into what they called cash transfer where 2,000 people for 12 months will be given N10,000 each. It is supposed to go to the Primary Health Care Unit and everyone has to be given. So, the money is tied to certain projects. The money is not for rice or palliatives. It is not for anything in that line.

But was it supposed to alleviate poverty like the cash transfer?

Yes, definitely. All of them are supposed to alleviate poverty. For instance, the World Bank identified certain roads that have to be done in our state and they selected all the roads one after another, for example, an area where there are a lot of agricultural activities, post-harvest, and wastage. This is because people do not have the opportunity to bring out all these things. But by the time we constructed the roads, the people were happy and were able to bring all their produce to the market and it empowered them. So, it reduced the level of poverty in those communities. In other places, it has to do with health, education, and agriculture. As for agriculture, we gave fertilisers and other farm inputs to the various farmers. So, in Nasarawa, the total number of people who had benefited from the NGKS of the N13.6bn that we received amounted actually to 525,754 beneficiaries.

How can we track them?

The authority that is supposed to follow this closely is the World Bank. They are interested in ensuring that everything you say you are doing must have happened. If it doesn’t happen, you are not qualified for the next disbursement. Take the first N136bn as an example. There are one or two states that get zero because the funds are tied to performance. How transparent are you transparent in your state? How much are you funding education? How much is your accountability as a state?

So, what happens to a state that defaults?

They get nothing. It is not just about transparency. It is also by the provision of the budget. The DLI which is called the Direct Link has to be agreed upon. World Bank must inspect to ensure that you have met all the requirements before the Ministry of Budget and Planning will now submit to the World Bank. The World Bank will now approve before the money comes. So, it is a World Bank loan. It was not money meant for us to do that. The reason why Nasarawa State is at the forefront of doing this is because the second tranche like I told you, we are number one of the N13.6bn. In the second one, we got N27bn. I will tell you, for instance, that out of this N27bn, not one naira has been touched. We got the money in June and we are just drawing the work programme right now. The heat right now in Nasarawa is that the money is there. It is a World Bank loan.

Are they also wrong to say the money is for poverty alleviation?

It is exactly like SUBEB. It is a regimented facility. It is a loan that is tied to projects. If you are to buy this biro, and it must be read, you cannot change it and go and buy another colour. With the rural roads, I had a meeting with the World Bank myself and I said, World Bank, these are rural roads.  Sometimes when we do them one year the rains come and wash them out. Instead of 15 kilometres, can we go somewhere so that maybe we can do 3 to 5 kilometres but tarred roads? They said no. It is supposed to be what was applied for. So, that is what I meant it is regimented. It has to be for exactly what it is meant for.

What are the terms and duration for repayment?

The reason why people are looking for this kind of loan if you remember, when former President Obasanjo was in office, Nigeria owed Paris Club roughly about $30bn. Nigeria had about $42bn in foreign reserves, and the President then was asked to make a deal. Pay $12bn and everything will be wiped out. That was the best thing that President Obasanjo had done for this country. Twelve billion dollars was paid and everything was wiped out. That is why you are hearing about this Paris Club and the rest. These are the kinds of loans that everybody is hoping for. World Bank gave this loan purely because they are doing it to support the COVID-19 era and they are the ones identifying where the money must go. So people are hoping. This is similar to that kind of loan.

What is the duration for repayment?

It is not even stated. It is just like the facility.

Is there a moratorium before repayment?

All of those are not stated now. It is a credit facility.

Why are the terms not stated?

There is no consultant in this case. It is direct from the World Bank to the Federal Government. It is Federal Government-driven because they accepted it. The Federal Government is to a certain extent guaranteeing it because you have FAAC allocation. For instance, it can be deducted from that. It is similar, like I said, to the Paris Club. There is an arrangement between the Ministry of Budget and Planning and the World Bank.

Don’t you think there might be something shady about it if there is no timeline and window of repayment?

There may be durations that are more familiar to the Ministry of Budget and Planning.

Why are the terms of repayment not clear or stated properly?

There is an agreement between the Ministry of Budget and Planning and the World Bank. The current Minister was a governor when the first tranche was disbursed. So, he is very familiar with it. This is an arrangement that is done mostly between the World Bank, the Nigeria Governors Forum, and the Ministry. So, as far as those intricacies are known, you have to qualify for it. You have to do so and so before you can qualify for it. It is the same thing with this last payment. One state got over 10 per cent because of their performance in the second stage. My idea is for people to understand that this money was given to states not to distribute to people. This is a facility that was taken from the World Bank and is purely tied to certain projects.

Has the Federal Government distributed any money outside this facility to the state governors that you are aware of to fight poverty?

One thing is that everybody must be grateful to Mr President for doing this. One, no state will say that their revenue has actually not multiplied sometimes and sometimes doubled. And you know it is common sense to know that. In the past, the total amount of revenue shared was somewhere around N600bn to around N620bn monthly. Sometimes it is even slightly lower. But today, the total amount being shared is N1.1trn, N1.2trn, N1.3trn, and the rest of that. You don’t need anybody to guide you because it is common sense. Every state, as well as the Federal Government, is receiving improved revenues. Thanks to Mr President for allowing that to go on like that. He would have said, no this money is meant for the subsidy, therefore, we are going to take it and divert it somewhere. But no. We are sharing it so that every state will go and do other things. What I don’t understand is the impression.

But some of your colleagues get that kind of money but do nothing?

Nobody will get that kind of money and do nothing.

How can we ensure that we see that some of them are doing something because some of the states in the federation are doing poorly? What can be done to ensure these monies are not stolen?

I don’t know any state that is not doing anything because when we come to the Nigerian governors’ forum, we share ideas. People say what they are doing and sometimes we see Mr Vice President and other people going from one place to another, trying actually to commission one project or one thing. We see people doing so much in agriculture. This particular protest that came is an eye-opener, especially for my colleagues from the North. Even if anybody is not doing anything, this is the time to do something because we cannot blame other people like the statement made by Shehu Sani, the Senator. He said forget about the microscope and look at the mirror. For me, I cannot wait for next week where we sit down as governors of Northern Nigeria and tell each other the truth. We must do something and we have no reason not to do anything.

People go to the streets in the North because they feel they are not well represented by those who claim they are leading them. Leaders in the northern region need to sit down and know it is time to lead their people right.

They used to be one of the most coordinated, but recent happenings have dwarfed that. What do you have to say about this?

The next meeting that we should have as governors of Northern Nigeria, is no longer a meeting where you will say a meeting has forbidden me from doing this. To date, God has gifted us with his leadership. If we don’t go out to say this has to be done right like during the last protests that we had in Lafia, the majority of those that came out on the streets were the Almajiri. Some of them are five, seven, and eight years old. A lot of them didn’t even understand the meaning of the protests. When I spoke with them later, they didn’t even know the reason why they were protesting. At one point in the year 2020, we sat that as governors and decided on the Almajiri. But unfortunately, it didn’t work out. They went back to square one. Some religious leaders criticised it. But from what happened now, I don’t believe anybody will continue to criticise the actions that will be taken to move forward. Otherwise, it will become a time bomb that will consume all of us.

What do you think is critical in your opinion that you need to start doing now to persuade them to let them know that you are working in their interest?

One of the biggest problems that we have in the North from the day I came to power, is the idea of education, and we are still pushing on. When people don’t have the education, don’t have the economic empowerment, these people will continue to behave like the way the Almajiri were doing during the protests. Education must be taken seriously in the North. We must be honest with one another. We must face one another and say, sir, marrying so and so several wives, having so and so number of children when you cannot even take care of yourself is wrong. No religion is promoting or allowing that.

You don’t think that is against the Holy Quran?

No, not at all. You can have more than one if you can afford it. The thing is that if you can afford it, there is no need to go for it.

Does Islam allow you to have more children and if you cannot take up your responsibility they are allowed to go on the streets and start begging?

No, Islam doesn’t allow that. Islam doesn’t agree with that. Our traditional and religious leaders need to be part of our meeting. The people are misusing the title of this Almajiri. I am an Almajiri. Almajiri is just a student. If I am sitting with Prof Isa Pantami, I will call myself an Almajiri. I am his student. Other people will sit with me and I can say they are my Almajiri. Almajiri is just being misused as a title. Almajiri is somebody seeking Islamic education. He is not a beggar.

Former President Jonathan Almajiri’s system was a wonderful idea, but it is collapsing now. Why?

It is a wonderful idea. You must not go back to that particular one. What I am saying is that from the beginning, let us educate ourselves. China educated itself to say you can only have this number of children. Yet they are not Muslims. There are more Muslims in India than any country in the world. But they are following some of these Islamic teachings. They don’t follow some of the things that we are doing. In Saudi Arabia, the majority of the people have only one wife.

So, do you agree that our people are misguided?

I don’t want to use wrong words of either misguided or misinterpret but I am saying we need to be educated by our religious leaders. The clerics and emirs need to rise; everybody, including our governors.

Is it time to declare a state of emergency in the North?

I don’t know if that is the right word to use. But we must wake up as leaders and do what we think is right for this country and our region. Our region is good in agriculture. Everyone should go back to the farm and if anybody is criticising, we have started. For me, the background is there. When I was a director in the Dangote Group, I managed the Savanah Sugarcane in Norman. I was the chairman of all the companies that were producing sugar in the country. I am very familiar with agriculture and I love it. I have my farms.